By Rosemary Ford and Melanie Matts, NH PBS

Our relationship with technology is fraught with contradictions. It has the potential to do so much good, and make our lives so much easier. Yet there are dangers and pitfalls to almost everything we do online – especially when it comes to our kids. At what age is it appropriate for a child to have a phone? When should they be allowed to be on social media?

On this week’s episode of The State We’re In, we meet with school psychologist Dr. Nate Jones to discuss all things children, technology, and mental health, and get his recommendations on technology use and talking to your children about the pitfalls of using the internet.

Melanie Plenda:

When it comes to cell phones, how are elementary schools generally dealing with them? What are the typical guidelines?

Dr. Nate Jones:

That's an excellent place to start and a really important question. For elementary schools we typically are seeing more prohibitions than kids not being allowed to have phones, at least in the building. Typically they're staying in backpacks, staying in pockets that are closed. So kids certainly do have phones in elementary school, at least some of the kids, but we're more often seeing them put away and not really being used. In contrast, though, we are seeing them on school buses, and we're seeing a lot of difficulty with elementary students using phones interactively outside the building. It's been a challenge for schools, understanding discipline code and how far the discipline code can go when it comes to their students interacting with each other about school or non school related topics through technology outside the building. Because elementary school kids are still little kids, and they tend to make some mistakes. And there's been a lot of work that has been done about how to best address the mistakes that get made with technology with our youngest kids.

Melanie Plenda:

What about the older kids then in middle school or high school? What are we seeing there?

Dr. Nate Jones:

It changes, because in high school almost every student has a phone. In middle school, you see a huge variety – some students with the newest, latest and greatest, some students with old school flip phones, some students with just a watch on, all sorts of varying technology. There is more use of technology in learning, especially at the high school level. We see high school teachers having students look information up on their phone, use functions like calculators and other apps on the phone at times. Also, though I’ve been seeing more and more restrictions. One of the schools I used to go to a lot, the guest Wi-Fi was more or less open, so all these students are on Wi-Fi all day and can use their phones because reception is no good. Well now they just put a password on their Wi-Fi and those students will no longer have access. And that's certainly caused some consternation, but also has decreased phone use. And it was paired with a stronger policy about having phones packed and away. So I think that we're seeing them incorporated into learning at the high school level, we're seeing greater restrictions on them, but we're also seeing a pretty inconsistent implementation of those restrictions. So it varies widely town to town, it varies widely within buildings within towns. It's still definitely the Wild West when it comes to phones, but I think if anything we're seeing the movement towards less and less cell phones in schools.

Melanie Plenda:

How do you balance policies about focusing on school with school safety when it comes to cell phones? With the current climate, so many parents are worried about being able to reach their kids or for their kids to reach them in an emergency. How do schools balance those kinds of competing interests?

Dr. Nate Jones:

It's a very challenging question. The first thing I want to say is that schools are an incredibly safe place to be and are becoming safer all the time. Millions of kids go to school every day in this country, and educators are working every day to ensure safety. As educators we all have the same nightmares and we're all terrified of the same things, and so much work is done within school buildings to promote safety. That's a really important thing to always remind ourselves of, to remind families of, and remind students of, and the importance of, when crises happen – and they do – to listen to your teachers. That's the first move. Not only on your phone, not be on social media, but really pay attention to what you’re being told by your teachers and follow directions. That keeps everybody safe. At the same time, crises are crises, so we're looking for a balance we’re probably never going to find. Because when a crisis happens, whether it's a family crisis or a school crisis, people want to feel better, and connection helps us feel better, and cell phones allow us to connect. They're not going away. The internet, social media, cell phones are here to stay. And schools are having to adapt and evolve and manage our crisis plans. There's a few things we can think of, though, because we want to differentiate between crises and inconveniences. It can be a crisis if someone is in hospital, it can be a crisis if there's a threat at school. It is not a crisis if you forgot your soccer cleats. And so we have to differentiate that, and that become can become a real challenge, both for students who can feel a strong need to reach out to their family about something that other folks might not think are crises but the student feels as a crisis, which we want to respect that certainly; for families that want to reach their own children about crises and/or inconveniences. So it's never a great answer. I have certainly seen schools implement rules where you can come down to the office and reach out to family, no problem, but you have to come down to the office and do it at a time when you have a moment when you have free time during the day, not during math instruction. Other schools I've seen be less structured in it. So I think we'll probably never find the right balance. Each school will do it differently, but it's here to stay.

Melanie Plenda:

What effect can phones have on the behavior of kids? Most kids have access to computers, with many similar features. Is having a cell phone different in some way? 

Dr. Nate Jones:

Yes, is the short answer. But at the same time, behavior is behavior, and we hear a lot of “kids these days” talk. It comes up all the time, especially when it comes to phones. What I always remember when we hear the “kids these days” conversations is a great quote about how kids love luxury, and won’t mind their elders, and have no manners…from Socrates, 2500 years ago. So “kids these days” have been “kids these days” for an awful long time. We have to respect that kids will always find novel ways to break the rules, novel ways to get in trouble, all the ways to just be kids. Cell phones have provided a new mechanism for that, but they haven't come up with new ideas yet. It's the same behavior but in a new way. I think we want to keep responding, because healthy habits are still healthy habits. A good routine, going to sleep at the same time each day, having regular meals, exercise, extracurriculars, time with your friends, going to school every day – these continue to be the things that promote health. And where cell phones can interfere with behavior, it’s where cell phones start interfering with those healthy habits, those protective factors. The flip side is, they also can promote. Many folks have probably seen the Surgeon General's report about loneliness, the dangers of loneliness, and making loneliness akin to smoking because of its impact on individuals, its impact on health systems cost. When going well, cellphones can be an amazing way to communicate with other people, maintain connections, grow skills and learn new things. But they have the opposite downsides as well. They can be distracting, then there's big mental health downsides like bullying or harassment or finding/sharing inappropriate images online. I'm awfully glad that my entire childhood wasn't recorded on video by my friends, but it is now. I’ve worked too many cases where a child did some dumb thing a kid might do, but it was recorded by one of their friends and shared, and has then become a huge controversy and a huge distraction and a potentially harmful event for that child. So they can have a huge impact on mental health and behavior. But at the same time, we have to keep responding like we know how to respond. And schools are really good at responding to behavior. We're very good at it. So we have to keep with what we know, because we know it does work.

Melanie Plenda:

What are some good rules to have for kids when it comes to technology and the use of social media? Does that change for different age groups? Can you give some examples?

Dr. Nate Jones:

The first thing is, every family is different, every child is different, every situation is different. So really I only know of one rule, the rest are more or less guidelines. But the one rule, to me, is talk about it. We have to talk with our kids in our schools, we have to talk with our students, and the conversations have to be ongoing. It can't be that we did it once when they were seven and we're good now. We have to have the conversations all the time. Aside from that one rule, in terms of some guidelines: First thing I might say is the American Psychological Association released a health alert about social media, which contains some great guidance in it. I certainly encourage people to go reference that document and some of the reporting around it. But also, basic things like phones should not be charged in bedrooms. I know a lot of kids use their phones for alarm clocks, so that can be a challenge, but charge phones in the living room overnight. Keeping kids off social media when they're young – yes, your eight year old might have a phone if that's the decision you've made, but let's keep social media back. We have seen reports of keeping social media back until children are 16, which is in no way the norm right now, but that's what some folks have said. Certainly holding on social media, making sure you know your child's passcode. If your child changes their passcode and you can't get into the device anymore, that's a red flag. That will be a concern for me. Not using phones during mealtimes, that's an important thing, but it also impacts parents because kids do what we do. Some of the rules about not using your phone during school are like not using your phone during work. If we're going to have rules for our children, it’s becoming an important question of how much do we also abide by those same rules?

Melanie Plenda:

If there is something going on, what are warning signs that parents and teachers can look for? When should there be concern?

Dr. Nate Jones:

Just like mental health is, mental health and behaviors are behaviors – and have been since Socrates – warning signs are warning signs. Withdrawing from activities, withdrawing from social relationships, changing sleep patterns, changes in eating patterns, quick changes in friends – these sorts of things are warning signs of something. More technology-specific things, like I said, have a known passcode and notice if your child has changed their passcode. If you're out on vacation and your phone’s in the car and say, Hey can I borrow your phone to take a picture, and you're told no. Or if you ask your child or students to put devices away, and they don't just grumble, because kids might grumble at us, but they get really agitated, fight back, put it away for a very short period of time and have to pull it back out again – that addictive component to technology. Those are all signs that something might be going on, and we want to reach out and potentially consider some help or at least have some more in-depth conversations with our own kids. The other piece that tracks back to that radicalization aspect, if that might be occurring, is the sharing of inappropriate content, and also blaming others for their reaction to that content as opposed to taking the ownership that perhaps I shared something I shouldn't have. That would be a good warning sign to stop and have some conversations with our kids.

Melanie Plenda:

How do you suggest parents have conversations about the use of screens and online behaviors with their children? What sorts of topics are age appropriate? How do you start those discussions?

Dr. Nate Jones:

First, start young like you do with any safety conversation. You always start way before it's needed – don't wait until it's needed. Start young, both at home and school. Schools should be having these conversations as well. Remember that it's not a friend conversation, it's a parent-to-child conversation that we're imparting information, we're challenging our kids to grow, we're trying to grow skills, and we're focusing on the safety, the decision making, the understanding of content and where might come from. Especially when they're younger, it's our experiences – if you happen to post something you shouldn't have online, or you read something you think is true and it turns out not to be true, discuss that with your child as a teachable moment. That, hey, this has happened to me, and point out that it could happen to you as well. Make the connection. But I'm also talking about things that may or may not apply to parents. The dangers of anonymous posting online, either posting ourselves or reading posts from that are anonymous and unattributed to anybody. The addiction aspect, the bullying aspect, the chance of receiving or delivering really negative content towards others. Early in middle school, talk about inappropriate imagery, either viewing it or created, and video that at any point you may be being recorded with one of your friends – cell phones are discreet, that's how they differ from computers, they fit in my pocket and can record you without you knowing and share it with people instantaneously, and the dangers that might come along with that. Talking about those topics early and often. I think everybody can kind of know on their own developmental appropriateness. If a child has disabilities, or otherwise has different development from what it will be generally expected, adjusting when we have conversations but also not waiting. One of the least informed groups that I work with is teenagers with intellectual disabilities, because they don't go to health class in school and there are other things going on in their lives. So often they don't have information they should have about the dangers of online, the dangers of social media, the dangers of phones, but they often receive phones for safety reasons or for communication with their friends. So they have technology, but they often are some of the least informed students about the dangers and the safety risks.

Melanie Plenda:

Is there a line for how much you monitor what your kid is doing? Do you look in their phone? Do you look through their social media? Do you go through their computer? Especially when you do want to have those conversations, you want to build that trust with your child and give them some level of privacy, but also you want to make sure that you're doing your job as a parent and keeping them safe. What’s a good line or rule of thumb there?

Dr. Nate Jones:

I don't think kids should be forbidden from technology forever, so I don’t think the “never under my roof” approach is a good one. Because eventually our children want to move out, and if they've never had access to technology until then they haven't learned how to regulate it. Part of it to me is using technology with our children to have those conversations, so there's growth opportunities along the way. Another piece that fits into this is recognizing that kids are probably going to make mistakes, our kids are probably going to lie to us. I often get in situations with parents who say, Oh, I know my child lies. And we do, we know that some of the times our children lie. But almost every time I've been told that by a parent, I talk to the kid abd find more ways they've been lying than the parent knows about. Because this is what kids do. And so we have to have restrictions, recognize kids are going to try to break them, anticipate that, and talk to your kids about that openly. Don't make it a secret. Don't make it shameful. Just make it part of life and have conversations about it. The way we manage not breaking restrictions, the whole “just say no to drugs” thing didn't work because it didn't give the alternative. So when we think about restrictions and limiting things, yes, use parental controls. Go to your phones and your internet provider and your TV provider, all those things, and turn on all those restrictions at the age appropriate levels as they describe them. Go to the online resources that tell us what age certain material is appropriate, there are online groups that tell you what age certain movies and TV shows and apps are good for kids, go read those. But read them with your children, talk about them with your children, and also talk about what else they can do – talk about the importance of extracurriculars and exercise and sleep, so our kids know not just what they're choosing not to do, but what they're choosing to do instead.

Melanie Plenda:

How, as a parent, do you decide when a child is ready to take the training wheels off, and have access to social media, a regular cell phone, privacy online, etc.?

Dr. Nate Jones:

The younger the child is, the more appropriate it is to look through their phones. Below 10, kids who have technology we need to monitor it extraordinarily carefully. And kids shouldn't be on social media, but even text messaging and pictures. And again, doing it with them – not after they go to bed at night sneakily, but sit down with them and talk about it. So yeah, below 10, I think we have to be very careful with what's going on. From 10 to 14, I think you get progressively more free. And by 14 to 16, I think that's where we are really starting to give our kids that independence, recognising they may make mistakes, but also allowing them to have personal property, that even though I might pay the bill, it's still your personal property unless something goes awry. We have to have some faith in our children. Just not too soon. So to me, 14 to 16 is when I started having more faith for most kids. Every kid is different, but that's maybe my age line when I start to pull back.

Melanie Plenda:

What about being a good digital citizen online? In the era of online bullying, trolling, catfishing, how do you talk about the way kids represent themselves online and the impact that can have on their future? And the longevity of some of these decisions?

Dr. Nate Jones:

That's where that modeling, and that discussion of how it goes for us as parents, especially when things don't go quite right for us with our own online presence and our own online use of media. We can bury people in statistics, but what we know is that if someone disagrees with me and I pile on statistics, they're more likely to get stronger in their own belief than to agree with me. But examples and stories are what change minds. So if we're trying to talk about being a good digital citizen,or appropriate online behavior, or the dangers of anonymous posting, it's the specific examples – especially examples from our own lives – that are gonna make that difference. And again, doing it young, starting elementary school, before kids have technology. And making it a regular part of our conversation as a family or as a class at school, versus waiting until disaster strikes and then trying to go back and teach everything we assumed that they would know.

The State We’re in a weekly digital public affairs show is produced by NH PBS and The Marlin Fitzwater Center for Communications. It is shared with partners in the Granite State News Collaborative, of which both organizations are members.